Life After Diagnosis: Setting Boundaries and Letting Go with Jessica Gulish

Daniela Tempesta [00:00:00]: No matter how organized you are, how successful you are, how good you are at handling things, there are things that happen in life that nothing can prepare you for. A cancer diagnosis is one of those things. There's no manual for it. One day you're moving through life and everything feels relatively normal, and then suddenly your whole world gets turned upside down. On today's show, we're talking to my best friend, Jessica Gulish, who lived this experience. Jessica is a vibrant, social, successful, woman, someone who has always been incredibly good at handling shit. And at 44, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. One weekend we were in Vegas watching the Backstreet Boys, and 2 weeks later, a diagnosis just like that.

Daniela Tempesta [00:00:40]: Life changed in a blink of an eye. Jessica, welcome to the show.

Jessica Gulish [00:00:45]: Oh, thank you, Daniela. That was so sweet and so fun to hear you say like that. I forgot.

Daniela Tempesta [00:00:51]: It was literally like that. We were just in Vegas. watching the Backstreet Boys at the Sphere, reliving our teenage years. And then a few weeks later I got the text from you.

Jessica Gulish [00:01:00]: Yep. It happens that quickly.

Daniela Tempesta [00:01:02]: It happens that quickly. Like life just comes outta nowhere and knocks you on your ass.

Jessica Gulish [00:01:07]: Yeah.

The Day Jessica Found Out

Daniela Tempesta [00:01:08]: Tell me more about that day, if you remember it, that moment when you first found out and like the emotions that came up just in learning about the diagnosis. Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:01:18]: You know, even our fun trip to Vegas, like at that point I knew I had a lump. And I think, you know, someone that once I have a lump, I think, okay, this is cancer, you know? But then I also am logical and like, this isn't cancer and stop thinking that and just enjoy yourself. But there was definitely moments I'm like, is this my last trip? You know, when we went to Vegas. Mm-hmm. And I mean, you go there like, you know, in moments in time and then you also are really self-critical and like, don't go there. But then, yeah, I, I would say the day I found out. Was very hard. But even the day I had a biopsy, everyone's been to the doctor and you kind of look at the doctors to kind of judge, is this serious or not? Mm-hmm.

Jessica Gulish [00:02:00]: And it was serious. You could tell they changed their tone. They stopped their jibber jabber in between. And for the record, that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, but in this moment it was pretty obvious that this was not good and that they were doing extra diagnostics. That day was definitely the hardest day. Um, because I wasn't prepared for that. I had talked myself down that so many people have, you know, benign lumps, cysts, whatnot. And so it was just a little jarring and it took so long cuz they were being so thorough.

Jessica Gulish [00:02:32]: And in that moment, all I was concentrating on was keeping it together, to be honest. I wasn't forward thinking like other moments in time. Mm-hmm. Oddly. And then I got outta there. I was like, just don't cry. 'Cause I like didn't wanna be hysterical in the meeting. 'Cause then I thought I like wouldn't stop and didn't know.

Jessica Gulish [00:02:50]: And they wouldn't confirm if I had cancer or not. They can't. And so that was on a Thursday. Then I received the call Monday morning and I was told it would usually be Tuesday I'd get my results. So I already felt like it wasn't good that I got the call. I didn't answer the call. I was on a call with a customer. I don't remember that sales call at all.

Daniela Tempesta [00:03:11]: I'm sure, I'm sure you blocked it out.

Jessica Gulish [00:03:13]: Yeah, I blocked out. Yeah, absolutely. 'Cause all I could think about was, oh my God, I should have just hung up and answered this call. And I text my mom and my sis and I say they, I have to call Kaiser back. And I called back and I don't remember entirely, Daniela, but I think I, I just didn't believe it.

Daniela Tempesta [00:03:32]: Right.

Jessica Gulish [00:03:32]: To be honest, it, it just doesn't. Feel true. And I think kind of because of what I said earlier, it's like on one hand we're like, I have cancer, I'm gonna die. Like that's what that lump is and I'm being an idiot. Stop doing that. So you have like both emotions that are conflicting at the same time. But then pretty quickly it was like, I did what I always do. I just went into action mode.

Jessica Gulish [00:03:55]: We're gonna fight this, we're gonna organize this, we're gonna find out everything we need to find out now. I found this early and then I texted you.

Daniela Tempesta [00:04:04]: Yes. Oh, I will never forget.

Jessica Gulish [00:04:06]: And then we proceeded to have a really hard 3 weeks of diagnosis. The biggest thing about breast cancer is you don't find it all out right away, and that is frustrating as a control freak and someone that loves information. You don't know if you have the harder fight in front of you. I think the term I used all the time was, I don't know what fight I'm fighting for. I don't know what type of army I need to gather. I don't know what type of strength I need to gather. And that was so, so frustrating for me. So it was a slow drip of diagnoses that you get.

Jessica Gulish [00:04:38]: It was tough.

Waiting When There Is Nothing to Fix

Daniela Tempesta [00:04:39]: That's so interesting because it's like the only thing you really can do in that moment is just wait.

Jessica Gulish [00:04:45]: Mm-hmm.

Daniela Tempesta [00:04:46]: Right? And like,

Jessica Gulish [00:04:47]: so hard.

Daniela Tempesta [00:04:48]: Try to sit with the discomfort or like walk yourself through those uncomfortable moments. But that's so hard when you're so used to being in action mode and you're like, oh, if there's something wrong, I fix it. I figure out what the path is and I fix it. But there was no fix yet. You had to wait.

Jessica Gulish [00:05:02]: Oh yeah. Like, what was I supposed to go back to work after I just found this out? I didn't. And then I was like, I need to take another day off. But then like, I could work, you know? It wasn't like anything was changing 2 days from now. Like, I could still work. Obviously my mental status was a little different, but that was really awkward. I didn't know what to do with myself.

Daniela Tempesta [00:05:24]: Right. It was really unfamiliar.

How Jessica Coped While She Waited

Jessica Gulish [00:05:26]: Yeah.

Daniela Tempesta [00:05:26]: So what did you do with yourself? Like, how did you cope with those moments? Did you distract? Did you research? Did you like Google, you know? Yeah. Rabbit hole?

Jessica Gulish [00:05:36]: Yeah. 'Cause, um, I got some good advice to not Google because I didn't know what type of tumor type I had and different types have different prognoses. And so if you go down the wrong path, that can just be really scary. So I did very light research on the different types and different things that can happen. But I think it was like within a week I found out the tumor type and I got organized. I created a Google Doc. I was like, shared it with my family, decided who was gonna be helping me, who would take me to appointments. 'Cause they did give you a lot of stuff on that first call.

Jessica Gulish [00:06:11]: Like, how am I gonna document and record, use all my technology that I love? So I still did take the action I could take at that time.

Daniela Tempesta [00:06:20]: Yeah. You still brought like the normal way you would show up to something, just, but to this.

Jessica Gulish [00:06:25]: Yeah.

Daniela Tempesta [00:06:25]: Right.

Jessica Gulish [00:06:26]: Yeah. This is the next day I got my nails done with, um, my mom and I remember thinking, oh, should I not be getting my nails done? Is that like cancer causing? Like, I remember,

Daniela Tempesta [00:06:35]: God,

Jessica Gulish [00:06:36]: it, it just like started that quickly and I was like, no, What am I doing? Yesterday I would've got my nails done. Nothing's gonna change.

Daniela Tempesta [00:06:46]: But that's so interesting cuz it's like all of a sudden your world shifts overnight.

Jessica Gulish [00:06:50]: Yep.

Daniela Tempesta [00:06:51]: And everything can start to be seen as a potential threat. Things that were like everything totally innocuous the day before. And that's terrifying to just be like in your world trying to move through your day and all of a sudden everything could be a potential threat.

Jessica Gulish [00:07:04]: Yeah. I had to make a choice at that moment that I wasn't going to allow that at this moment. I didn't have the information on why. I mean, you don't really find out why ever. But I didn't have the true physician-based advice on what I should and shouldn't do. And I, you know, have been adjacent to healthcare my entire career. And so I was like, I will wait until they tell me what I should and shouldn't do or what they recommend. Until then, I will just keep normalcy because it's about to not get so normal.

Daniela Tempesta [00:07:34]: Right. Like enjoy these things while you can.

Jessica Gulish [00:07:35]: Yeah.

Choosing to Slow Down and Take Time Off Work

Daniela Tempesta [00:07:36]: And on that note, I mean, one of the things you've talked to me about is that During that time, you had to make a conscious choice to slow down.

Jessica Gulish [00:07:45]: Oh.

Daniela Tempesta [00:07:45]: To like change the pacing of your life, to make a lot of changes. And I'm curious to hear more about that process for you, cuz it's sort of counterintuitive to your normal way of moving through the world.

Jessica Gulish [00:07:57]: Yeah. I mean, so much goes through your head when you get diagnosed and then you get more information about what you're actually gonna have to do and then it's gonna affect your life. And I. It was like, okay, well, am I gonna have to take time off of work? How am I gonna take time off of work? I worked at a busy company. They needed me and I had a lot of plans the next 6 months and what I was gonna do at my job. So I had, you know, I talked to my team and they helped and I talked to my doctors about like, how can I best heal? What's the most important? And I had to decide to take time off and I took a couple months off and I Struggle with it. I was like, well, maybe I can do partial, or maybe I can do this, or maybe I can do 3 weeks after surgery and then, then come back part-time. And I knew that I'm not good at only halfway doing work.

Daniela Tempesta [00:08:49]: Hmm.

Jessica Gulish [00:08:49]: And I knew that I needed the mental break. My whole job was me, and I needed to spend my entire energy on making sure I healed the best. Because that was the biggest risk factor for my type of cancer and what I was getting done was surgical complications at this point. And so I knew that I had to invest in that and I knew that I'd been at my company, you know, 9 years and I could take this time easy.

Daniela Tempesta [00:09:16]: So just to clarify, when you say my whole job was me, you meant like your job at that time needed to become taking care of yourself and focusing on you versus all these other things. Okay.

Jessica Gulish [00:09:26]: Yep.

Daniela Tempesta [00:09:27]: And so you had to make that switch.

Jessica Gulish [00:09:28]: Yeah, I had to decide that I was going to compartmentalize and let my coworkers and team and company do their own thing. They're going to survive. They'll be fine. And so I could be a better employee down the road for them because I took this time. And I had talked to some people that didn't take as much time off of work and they regretted it. So I did have some people I talked to that helped. But I would say once I signed off from work, it took a little bit to be okay with it and not be curious, you know, how are things going? Do they need my help? But then I pretty much was like out of sight, out of mind. I took the apps off.

Jessica Gulish [00:10:08]: I didn't open that computer. I needed those boundaries and I leaned into it. I leaned into my own healing and I knew that they would reach out over text message, which was separate, you know. If they needed me and they didn't, of course they were so, so, so, so supportive for the record.

Daniela Tempesta [00:10:26]: Right. But such a good reminder that like the world will keep turning without you.

Jessica Gulish [00:10:29]: Oh my God.

Daniela Tempesta [00:10:30]: Right? Like I remember a couple of times over the past decade when I've taken time off of work, like during my divorce or after losing my dad, and I would panic like, oh my God, I feel so terrible. Like not being with my clients, what am I gonna do? And whenever I come back, I'm like, oh, everything was fine. Everybody was fine. It's not that big of a deal.

Jessica Gulish [00:10:48]: No.

Daniela Tempesta [00:10:48]: So I'm curious though, like how do you think your recovery either physically or emotionally or both might have been different if you hadn't taken that time? If you had just tried to do like 50% time or tried to go back to work?

Jessica Gulish [00:11:03]: Yeah, I, I think it wouldn't have been as successful. I, I think that I was able to heal and the other thing, and this is also talking to other cancer survivors that didn't take time off, I was able to process what was going on more. So that when I came out of all of this, as whatever that means, but you know, as time has gone on, I have processed a lot more than if, if I was too busy, you know, taking care of myself in the few hours and then taking care of my work in other hours and, and trying to do it all. It definitely wouldn't have been as successful at all.

Daniela Tempesta [00:11:36]: Right.

Jessica Gulish [00:11:37]: I mean, I don't wanna think about what would've happened, but yeah, I,

"The Happiest I've Ever Been"

Daniela Tempesta [00:11:39]: right.

Jessica Gulish [00:11:39]: But I was happy during. I remember someone, I don't remember who said this, maybe it was you, but I had multiple people that were like, you seem pretty happy. Or I said, you know what? I think I'm the happiest I've ever been. And I feel really awkward saying this because I just got diagnosed with cancer. How can I be the happiest I've ever been? Like what?

Daniela Tempesta [00:11:58]: Right. You were sort of living your best life in a certain way because you were just like taking care of yourself and doing the things you love.

Jessica Gulish [00:12:03]: Yeah. And I was reflecting on myself and my life and where I am and You know, what does this mean? You know, I, I looked at my past and said, you know, I actually have been living my life in a way that I've been proud of and I'm happy about that. And does cancer diagnosis change that a little bit more? A little bit, but I'd already been doing it, so I was just happy about that. But I saw things rosier. I was just like, I was so happy to be able to get such a great diagnosis within the diagnoses that can happen with breast cancer. So I, I looked outside and I walked outside and I felt happy to be where I was. So I was the happiest and I wasn't working. I mean, not that I don't love my job.

Daniela Tempesta [00:12:42]: Totally. I know you love your job. Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:12:44]: But to be able to not work and just, you know, relax and, you know, do crafts and do my Pilates once I wasn't in surgery or recovering, um, was amazing. And it was San Francisco fall, which is a beautiful time of year. And it was just great. And I wasn't stressed.

Daniela Tempesta [00:13:01]: Right.

Jessica Gulish [00:13:01]: Which is probably gonna be your next question is about like what happened next.

The Papier-Mâché Project Before Surgery

Daniela Tempesta [00:13:06]: Yeah. I mean, before we get to that though, you mentioned the word crafts and it reminded me about your papier-mâché project that you did, I think maybe like the night before your surgery.

Jessica Gulish [00:13:17]: Yeah, just a couple days. Yep.

Daniela Tempesta [00:13:18]: A couple days before. So maybe you could tell the listeners about this little craft project that you did, cuz I think it was such, such an empowering choice.

Jessica Gulish [00:13:26]: Yeah. So twofold here, like. One, I found I had many different rituals that healed me with many different people, and different people healed me in different ways or helped and supported me in different ways. And I didn't think that was gonna happen. And,

Daniela Tempesta [00:13:42]: hmm,

Jessica Gulish [00:13:43]: you know, so this was one of those moments that I wanted to make a papier-mâché breast kind of model to have. That was my logical, like, thing. I didn't think of the emotional moment of making it. And I was with my friend and her sister, so 2 dear friends of mine, and it was very ritualistic. You know, you dip the strips of papier-mâché, you put 'em on. I'm sitting there naked in the bathroom, you know, and I don't know if I cried, but you know, it was pretty emotional. It was very sweet. And then—

Daniela Tempesta [00:14:17]: Very vulnerable for sure.

Jessica Gulish [00:14:18]: Yeah. And then you're waiting there with it and you're like, what am I doing? Why are we even having to do this? And you have these moments throughout, and I still have these moments like, wait, did this really happen? Wait, I really have surgery. Yeah. I really am doing something that I have to get. Wait, why do I even need to do this? And so that night was a lot more therapeutic and beautiful than I thought. And I still have it. I'm staring at it in my bookshelf over there. And—

Daniela Tempesta [00:14:46]: Right. And then you'll always have that— Yeah. Papier-mâché version of your pre-surgery. Yeah. Boobs.

Jessica Gulish [00:14:52]: Yeah. And honestly, that's what I thought I wanted, Daniela. But really that experience is more valuable than if I lost that thing right now.

Daniela Tempesta [00:14:59]: Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:14:59]: And that was more shocking to me. So I loved that and I loved the craft and doing it. I hadn't done that since we were kids, like with our faces.

Accepting Support From Other People

Daniela Tempesta [00:15:06]: Do you think that there were other things that were shocking about like how other people showed up for you? Or did you feel like you had expected people to kind of be there to support you? Or were there parts of it that kind of surprised you in terms of The support that you got from others, or maybe even things that were hard about accepting support from others?

Jessica Gulish [00:15:24]: Well, yeah, I live alone. I'm independent. So I'm used to like being in my own space and doing things how I want, having things kind of be how, you know, I've set them up to be. And so when I had to welcome family in to support me, they had different ways of doing things. So that was challenging. And I just thought like, oh, I can do it. I can get up and do this, or I can do this. And so I had to learn how to say, Like, yeah, I would love for you to bring me food or come over and bring food or just come over and sit on the couch with me so I'm not alone all day.

Jessica Gulish [00:15:56]: So that was awkward at first. You know, I'm like, I can just do food delivery. You know, I don't need someone to bring it, but I think it also is almost more shocking that how much I appreciated it and really made a difference. Even just receiving text messages from people like means a lot, even if I don't respond. Like it meant a lot.

Daniela Tempesta [00:16:14]: Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:16:15]: But I think the most shocking thing, I think it was the extremes of how people reached out. There was a huge spectrum. There was just like, just thinking of you, or how are you doing? And then there was like paragraph after paragraph. And I don't know if it's because it's like bringing up something in them that they're fearful of what happened to me happening to them or of their family member, or they're just really in touch emotionally and just wanna be there. But it was a lot. I, I didn't expect that. Yeah. The harder part was telling people.

Jessica Gulish [00:16:44]: That was the harder part, I think. Telling people that I had the cancer, that I got diagnosed, and I'm gonna be okay. I like would like worry about their emotions, you know?

Daniela Tempesta [00:16:53]: Right. Like it was like you needed to be cared for in that moment, but instead you had to kind of manage their response to hearing the news.

Jessica Gulish [00:17:00]: Yeah. And I think you remember, I like, after I told like a smaller circle, I had everybody tell everybody else.

Daniela Tempesta [00:17:06]: Yeah. Right. No, I mean, that's so heavy to have to tell people over and over and over again. I mean, I actually remember this when I had to call people to tell them that my dad had passed.

Jessica Gulish [00:17:15]: Yeah.

Daniela Tempesta [00:17:16]: You know what I mean? It was just like every time you had to do it, it was like re-experiencing the shock all over again. And at a certain point I just did, I said, can you let so-and-so know? And can you let so-and-so know? It was just, yeah, too much.

Communicating What You Need

Jessica Gulish [00:17:28]: The one thing though about telling people and having people tell other people, you have to tell people what you want.

Daniela Tempesta [00:17:33]: Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:17:33]: I mean, obviously it's life, but not everybody knows what you need. And so I had to be really specific, like, hey, tell people about what's happening, but tell them they can reach out to me because I had some people that didn't reach out after knowing. And I was just like, that's awkward. And that makes me kind of sad. Like they don't need to say much, but I just want them to acknowledge it. So that was hard.

Daniela Tempesta [00:17:55]: I think it's so hard cuz people like their own stuff. gets in the way sometimes.

Setting Boundaries and Changing Your Mind

Jessica Gulish [00:18:00]: Totally.

Daniela Tempesta [00:18:00]: Either their own fears about like their own health or something that happened to them, or they don't wanna say the wrong thing and upset you, so they just say nothing. What advice do you have for somebody who's maybe going through something really hard right now, whether it's a diagnosis or some other really difficult thing in terms of like how they communicate with their friends and family about what kind of support they need?

Jessica Gulish [00:18:23]: Yeah, I think just be really clear about what you need, what's helpful. But also giving them room, like you said, like they don't have the manual. They don't know what to do either. So I think be specific. You know, in my situation, I'm very fortunate to have a ton of friends and family that are close distance-wise. And so I had to actually kind of tell people no.

Daniela Tempesta [00:18:45]: Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:18:46]: Um, I don't want visitors because I remember after my surgery I had like a schedule and we had like 4 visitors a day and I finally had to tell my sister, I was like, I can't do this. It's too exhausting. I can't talk. And so I think prioritize yourself, say what you want, and guess what? You can also change your mind.

Daniela Tempesta [00:19:02]: I love that.

Jessica Gulish [00:19:03]: So I thought I wanted more people, but I didn't. And I literally canceled everybody and it felt great. I just watched TV. I rested. I went on walks just with my sister or whoever, you know, one person a day.

Daniela Tempesta [00:19:14]: I just think that's such a powerful message. Like just a reminder that we always have choices and it's okay to change our mind, right? Like what you decide today doesn't have to be like, written in stone somewhere, right? Like if the day of you're like, no, I don't want anybody here, or I don't wanna do this thing anymore, then it's okay. Change it. And like, people will survive. Were people maybe bummed that they didn't get to see you? Sure. Maybe they were.

Jessica Gulish [00:19:37]: Yeah. I can't control their emotions. Yeah. I mean, Danielle, I can't tell you, like, I was like, I feel bad canceling on them. Like that I even said that is like insane. Like the whole point of their visit is for me. So I guess just like, don't lose that. Don't lose it.

Jessica Gulish [00:19:52]: What's the point? The point is you and your own healing. And if something changes where you're like, I don't need people, or I do need people, change it. But tell people, don't just be, if you do want people, you gotta tell them to come by and tell them exactly what you need. 'Cause they're not gonna be a mind reader.

Daniela Tempesta [00:20:09]: Nobody's a mind reader.

Jessica Gulish [00:20:10]: No. I mean, it's just like life, right? I mean, with all relationships. Yeah.

Daniela Tempesta [00:20:14]: No, but I just think that makes so much sense. I think we all expect other people to be mind readers, unfortunately. But it's interesting if you catch yourself in that moment of being like, oh God, I feel so bad about this thing I need to do.

Jessica Gulish [00:20:27]: Yeah.

Daniela Tempesta [00:20:27]: Pause and ask yourself, wait a second, what was even the goal here? 'Cause it's like you lose the forest for the trees in that, right? Because all of a sudden, absolutely, it's almost like you forgot what the original purpose was, which was for people to be there to care for you. And you're like then feeling bad for them. You had to bring it back like, oh, wait a second, what was this actually about? No, it's okay. It's okay for me to cancel.

Jessica Gulish [00:20:48]: Yeah. And I think, Danielle, we both are people that love to make plans and like pride ourselves on our word of showing up and doing what we say we're going to do. And so it's just so natural that if we make a plan for how we want to recover, you know, in whatever situation, and then that plan changes, we feel like flakes or irresponsible or not good planners. And so it makes sense that in a sensitive situation, you know, like recovering and having support there, we act the same. Um, so I had to really get out of my own way and just, just do it. And it wasn't easy. I still felt bad.

Daniela Tempesta [00:21:24]: Right.

Jessica Gulish [00:21:25]: I think that's just back to the slowing down, not overcommitting. And I think sometimes I, I wanted to fill my time so then I wouldn't be lonely, you know, so I would overcommit and then it would come up and I would actually need some time to be alone. And so I think I'm more appreciative of that downtime, that slow time. that alone time. And I think the other side of this coin is sometimes I was saying yes to things because I thought I didn't want to disappoint them.

Daniela Tempesta [00:21:54]: Right.

The "Let Me" Necklace

Jessica Gulish [00:21:55]: And I now feel more comfortable prioritizing myself. You know, the let them theory we talk about. Like I got engraved the let me, and I got this engraved early on and it says let me, which is the result of let them do their thing. To let me focus on what I'm doing. And I would have an anxious moment of like, oh, I should do this, or I should worry about their, you know, them. And I would just rub the let me, you know, and just be like, nope, I need to focus on me. I need to focus on my healing, my mental health, my journey of what I'm going through.

Survivorship, Remission, and Where Jessica Is Now

Daniela Tempesta [00:22:30]: You've had surgery, you've recovered from your surgeries, and you are in remission. Is that? technically correct or?

Jessica Gulish [00:22:38]: Terminology is, is controversial.

Daniela Tempesta [00:22:40]: Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:22:41]: Um, yeah, you could say remission. I heard someone say that actually the day you get diagnosed is the day you start survivorship. And I thought that was really beautiful because it's true. The day I got diagnosed, I, I'm figuring out how to survive.

Daniela Tempesta [00:22:57]: Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:22:57]: And a year later, I'm still figuring out how I'm gonna continue to survive and Survive what I've gone through, survive about the fears of recurrence.

Daniela Tempesta [00:23:06]: What I wanna communicate to the listeners is that you did get through a lot of the really hard stuff.

Jessica Gulish [00:23:11]: Yes.

Daniela Tempesta [00:23:11]: And for right now,

Jessica Gulish [00:23:13]: yep,

Daniela Tempesta [00:23:13]: you are in a healthy place.

Jessica Gulish [00:23:16]: Absolutely. Yeah. I've been cancer-free since they took the tumor out of me. Oh my gosh, Daniela, a year ago today.

Daniela Tempesta [00:23:23]: No way. No way.

Jessica Gulish [00:23:24]: Oh my God, I love this.

Daniela Tempesta [00:23:25]: And I love that you just grabbed your boob. Well,

Jessica Gulish [00:23:28]: I grabbed my boob and I'm like emotional. I didn't realize, I just saw it. Yeah. So it was crazy. I believe it was a year ago today that I had my first surgery, the lumpectomy. All of it's strange cuz I am forgetting most of it.

Why Big Moments Get Blurry

Daniela Tempesta [00:23:42]: Yeah. Well, also you were in adrenaline cortisol survivor mode.

Jessica Gulish [00:23:47]: Yeah.

Daniela Tempesta [00:23:47]: Literally. Right. In terms of your nervous system. And so parts of your brain that are responsible for memory actually are shut off. So it makes sense that like, you know, it just didn't record some of those memories. It was just too much to process.

Jessica Gulish [00:24:01]: Yep, absolutely.

Daniela Tempesta [00:24:02]: And that's why sometimes these big events in our lives are blurry. Some parts of 'em are like really crisp and we can remember every single thing that happened and other parts are blurry.

Jessica Gulish [00:24:11]: Yeah. The biopsy day.

Changing How You Live After a Diagnosis

Daniela Tempesta [00:24:12]: Yep.

Jessica Gulish [00:24:13]: Very clear. The rest is a lot more blurry. You're so right. It's so weird how our brain does that.

Daniela Tempesta [00:24:18]: Yeah. I mean, it does it to protect us, but it's actually such a fascinating thing how sophisticated our brains are in being able to do all of this, like running in the background. But I'm curious if there's anything that you can think of maybe that's happened recently that, you know, was one of those moments where you like held the let me necklace, whether you've held it metaphorically or actually, and just picked a different path than you would have in the past. And it doesn't need to be, you know, something that's specific to cancer, but just something that's showing how you're choosing to live your life in a different way ever since this happened. Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:24:53]: I think that there's a lot. I think a lot of the habits happened, you know, in the first 6 months. And recently it's been more practicing that.

Daniela Tempesta [00:25:04]: Mm-hmm.

Jessica Gulish [00:25:04]: And it's just prioritizing being, it sounds weird what I'm about to say out loud, but like, what's gonna stress me out?

Daniela Tempesta [00:25:12]: Mm-hmm.

Jessica Gulish [00:25:14]: And so letting the mind go and keep getting more stressed about something or saying like, oh, I'm not working enough, or I'm not doing a good enough job at work, or I should be. I have to be like, no, I need to not keep working all night, or I need to go to my Pilates class, or I need to take a moment to appreciate everything I have done at work today instead of just thinking about what I haven't done. So I think like that's happening on a daily basis, but less consciously than it did 6 months ago. Yeah, I, I knew that I, I couldn't sustain how I was just doing stuff before.

Daniela Tempesta [00:25:47]: Right. I like that. It kind of reminds me, I talk to clients a lot about how at first when we're bringing on like a new habit or a new way of thinking that we have to like manually move the dial, right? We have to like

Jessica Gulish [00:25:57]: be

Daniela Tempesta [00:25:57]: super intentional about it and we have to like pull it over, over and over again. And then over time it can start to happen on its own.

Jessica Gulish [00:26:05]: Yep.

Daniela Tempesta [00:26:05]: Right? Because it becomes more of a habit. But at first it has to be like a really conscious choice. And it sounds like that's what you're saying. Like there was a lot of that manual moving of the dial and those old thoughts that come up that like, you're not doing enough.

Jessica Gulish [00:26:17]: Yep.

Daniela Tempesta [00:26:18]: That are self-critical. And instead you're sort of like, wait, no, I'm actually not gonna let this thought steer the ship right now.

Moving the Dial by Hand on Self-Critical Thoughts

Jessica Gulish [00:26:24]: Yeah. I had to do it manual. And I think the thing I wish I had more advice on earlier about that is it's only temporary that it's manual. Your brain will take over. I was like, so every single time, you know, I have these thoughts, I have to do this. It's like, no, no, no, your brain will start to be smart and take over because that's your habit, just like it does for every other habit that you don't even know you're doing. So, at first, I had to like write down, you know, what I did today and what I was proud of and how I took care of myself, how I took care of work. And then I saw it and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so much more than I was ever giving myself credit for.

Jessica Gulish [00:27:02]: And no wonder I'm exhausted.

Daniela Tempesta [00:27:04]: Right.

Jessica Gulish [00:27:04]: You know? And then I literally only had to do that manual process for like a week. And then I did the list in my head and then it just started to happen on its own. And it's been a huge change for me.

Daniela Tempesta [00:27:17]: How hopeful that is. I get why you say like you wish somebody had told you that, cuz maybe at first it felt heavy.

Jessica Gulish [00:27:24]: Too much work.

Daniela Tempesta [00:27:24]: Too much work.

The Brain's Negativity Bias

Jessica Gulish [00:27:25]: Yeah.

Daniela Tempesta [00:27:25]: But over time, those little shifts make a difference. And you know, the brain has a built-in negativity bias, right? It is hardwired to scan for the bad. And my favorite neuroscientist says that it's Velcro for the bad and Teflon for the good, right? The good just slides right on by. And so we have to like intentionally make our brain sticky for the good. But most of the time we end our day with like, what didn't I finish? What went wrong? We didn't say, what did I get done today? What did I do well today?

Jessica Gulish [00:27:55]: Exactly.

Daniela Tempesta [00:27:56]: Right. We're not taking inventory of all the positive. And statistically there's usually like way more positive in a day than there is negative, but our brain hyperfocuses on the negative. So it sounds like What you're saying is that you kind of had to make that shift to really refocus your energy on all that was there instead of all that was missing.

Jessica Gulish [00:28:15]: Yeah. And it was really hard for me because I'm a very positive person. Glass half full. Yeah. Silver linings. Like that is like the baseline of my personality. And I thought I was good at my job. Like I, I wouldn't think I was bad at my job yet.

Jessica Gulish [00:28:31]: Why am I being so critical of myself. I didn't realize I was negative about myself. I was positive about everything around me.

Daniela Tempesta [00:28:41]: Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:28:42]: Because I'm not that hard on myself, generally speaking, you know, like make things light. I make things happy. I figure out the problem and then I fix it. But this was one thing that I was just being so negative to myself about, which was weird realization because I think I prided myself on how positive I was. And then here I am being so critical of myself.

Daniela Tempesta [00:29:03]: And really it sounds like it sort of shined a light on that for you so you could bring attention to it and shift it.

Jessica Gulish [00:29:09]: Yeah. And just, I guess it made me realize that I'm not 100% all positive. There's some hidden kind of things going on there. And, and even with my cancer diagnosis, I was known for my silver linings. Yeah. You know, I was known for it. But I think that sometimes to be healthy, you also have to like acknowledge the hardships and talk through like what was hard or else you don't accept it.

Sharing a Diagnosis Publicly

Daniela Tempesta [00:29:36]: Right. Like, it's like, you know, you made a choice to be very public in sharing your journey along the way. You recorded a lot of videos and other things that you posted on social media to share your journey with people, which I know so many people reached out to you to thank you or to share with you, because that's what happens when we share ourselves with others. Other people feel comfortable. Bringing their story forward too.

Jessica Gulish [00:29:58]: Yeah. People thanked me.

Daniela Tempesta [00:30:00]: Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:30:00]: I was like, I think I may have even asked you, I was like, why are they thanking me? I'm so confused. Like, this is something that's good for me and I want to be helpful for other people. Thank you for being so brave. And I was like, I'm not, I don't, I still don't understand it. I wasn't, I don't feel like I was being brave, but it's just how we all are different.

Daniela Tempesta [00:30:18]: And I think you were being brave, even if you didn't feel like you were being brave, because I think we especially right now, live in a culture of like the highlight reel, right? Where everybody's just like putting out the best stuff all the time. And when we come out and say, this is hard, even if you have a positive attitude about it, like, this is what's going on in my life. It's really vulnerable.

Jessica Gulish [00:30:35]: Yeah.

Daniela Tempesta [00:30:35]: You know, and most people don't feel comfortable doing that. So I think it's great role modeling. And even if you're silver lining 90% of the time, and then you have one day where you go like, today's really hard. This, this sucks. Like, it's going to be okay, but this sucks. Like, that's just so real. And I think people appreciate the authenticity because a lot of times people aren't really sharing the full spectrum. They're just showing you like a snapshot and people feel seen by that because they're like, yeah, me too.

Daniela Tempesta [00:31:03]: Maybe not me too with the cancer, but like me too of like, this is hard.

Jessica Gulish [00:31:06]: Yeah. I can't do it all. Yeah, definitely.

Giving Back to the Breast Cancer Community

Daniela Tempesta [00:31:09]: Quickly, I just want to touch on one of the things that was really impressive about your journey too, was the way you channeled your energy into service and giving back. And I wonder if you could just share a little bit about what you did to kind of get involved with the breast cancer community and to give back to that community. Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:31:26]: Well, and I think it's a perfect transition. Like I also felt the need to help others and I found my cancer because I did a self-exam. And so I wanted to shout on top of every hill saying, go get your mammograms, do self-exams. And so that was why I did the Instagram and the Facebook. You know, and I don't even have that many friends on there.

Daniela Tempesta [00:31:48]: More than I do.

Jessica Gulish [00:31:50]: Maybe. I had one person say she went and got a mammogram and she was off and hadn't done it and she got diagnosed at the early stage.

Daniela Tempesta [00:31:59]: Oh my God.

Jessica Gulish [00:31:59]: And,

Daniela Tempesta [00:32:00]: oh my God.

Jessica Gulish [00:32:00]: And that was like 2 months after I found out.

Daniela Tempesta [00:32:02]: Wow.

Jessica Gulish [00:32:03]: And then I had another person, really close, like old, old close friend and, and that we're not in touch anymore, but we used to be and she just said, I got diagnosed, but seeing your post made me feel more comfortable that I can talk to you about it. And there's a lot of people that don't have anybody. Mm-hmm. So, you know, being there for those people. But with that, I joined an amazing organization that's for young breast cancer survivors, and it's a support organization in that we all are in this internal chat. We meet in person, online, and talk through what's going on, and there is nothing like being around people that have been through what you've been through. Yeah. So I early on got found them through a friend that had breast cancer that was also a member.

Jessica Gulish [00:32:48]: And I immediately was like, how can I help this organization grow? Like, so everyone can find out about them and everyone can feel the same way I felt when I was diagnosed and had their support system. Like, how can I help? And I had also been looking to give back, uh, my time cuz I have some extra time. I don't have kids, you know, it's. So I've been looking for a nonprofit to give time to. Uh, the Bay Area Young Survivors group needed help, and so I joined the board pretty quickly. And, uh, also very much like my personality, I still had one more surgery and I joined the board.

Daniela Tempesta [00:33:22]: Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:33:23]: So I, um, now I'm president of the board and really am just focused on helping make sure we have more support for everybody that gets diagnosed with breast cancer that doesn't have the support. It's the best.

Bay Area Young Survivors

Daniela Tempesta [00:33:34]: And can you share the name of that organization?

Jessica Gulish [00:33:36]: Oh yeah. It's the Bay Area Young Survivors.

Daniela Tempesta [00:33:40]: Okay. So for any of the people who are located in Northern California,

Jessica Gulish [00:33:44]: it's in San Francisco Bay Area. So if you're being treated or being seen in the San Francisco Bay Area and you've been diagnosed at 45 or younger,

Daniela Tempesta [00:33:52]: okay,

Jessica Gulish [00:33:53]: then you can become a member. You can go to our website, bayareayoungsurvivors.org, and we have a Slack group that we chat. We have, um, in-person meetings and it's amazing. Every single person I talk to is always like, Bayes has changed my life. I couldn't have done it without Bayes. We call it Bayes. And so it's so fulfilling to hear that. Like, I work a lot with them.

Jessica Gulish [00:34:15]: It's a lot of work, but I know it's for the greater good. There's gonna be, well, unfortunately every month we have new members joining.

Why Community Matters

Daniela Tempesta [00:34:24]: And I think this is just such a good reminder too, for anybody going through something hard. Whether it's cancer or, you know, the loss of a loved one or a divorce or whatever it is, like there is nothing like sharing that experience with other people who are going through it because other people can wanna be helpful, they can have compassion, but like unless you've lived it or you're living it, there's just some certain things you can't understand. And I don't know, the way we can feel so seen and held in community with other people who are right there with us. I know for me, like when I was going through my divorce, Yeah. Having a divorce support group was huge. So I think if you're listening right now and you're going through something hard and you don't have a community around it, this is a great reminder to like see what you can find because there are other people out there who are going through it too. And there's so much healing that can happen when we share the experience with other people who are going through it, even if, you know, they're not people we would otherwise have maybe necessarily even been friends with.

Jessica Gulish [00:35:21]: Well, and I think the shocking thing for me was I thought I would like find resources from them. Mm-hmm. So like, how did you do the surgery? What did you do here? What are your options here? What surgeons do you go to? But actually just sitting in the room with them and talking about anything felt better and not having to explain that you're tired or that you're feeling this or that. That was really surprising. And the in-person meetups have just been so, so wonderful. Like we just all feel so comforted. It's just great.

Daniela Tempesta [00:35:48]: Yeah.

Jessica Gulish [00:35:49]: You don't have to explain yourself. And I think that's another thing that happens when you go through cancer.

Daniela Tempesta [00:35:52]: Mm-hmm.

Jessica Gulish [00:35:53]: Is if you don't talk about it, it's weird. If you talk about it too much, it's weird. But like our group, you don't even think about it. And so to actually like free your mind of, of sculpting like what you're supposed to say is just so freeing.

Final Takeaway: Take Care of Yourself First

Daniela Tempesta [00:36:07]: Absolutely. Wow. There's so many amazing takeaways from this conversation. I think that are so powerful for anybody who's going through a cancer diagnosis, but I think in general, anybody who's going through something hard. Yeah. Or supporting somebody who's going through something hard. So I guess. My last question for you is, you know, if someone takes one thing from your experience that doesn't necessarily have to do anything with cancer, what do you hope it is?

Jessica Gulish [00:36:30]: You have to take care of yourself first. I mean, that is the most important thing, and then you can show up better for everything around you. And if you can't do that, you're never gonna be the full person to the person you're trying to help or your work. So you have to prioritize your own health. You have to pause, you have to reflect, and change also takes some hard work. Like it didn't happen overnight that I was able to reduce how much I was working and reduce like the stress, the mental stress around things I was doing or trying to please people. It did take some work. Like you're saying, that manual dial had to be moved a lot, but I am in such a more peaceful place now.

Jessica Gulish [00:37:13]: Yeah. It's so much better.

Daniela Tempesta [00:37:15]: That's so huge. And I think a lot of times we think we can bypass that stuff. Like we know, we know the whole thing about put on your oxygen mask first, whatever,

Jessica Gulish [00:37:22]: right? Yeah, exactly.

Daniela Tempesta [00:37:23]: But then we're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's fine. I'll, I'm different. Or it's okay, I'll get to me later. And it's like, mm, no, we can't bypass it. Nope. Life will slap you in the face. You could keep trying, but eventually you will be forced to slow down.

Jessica Gulish [00:37:36]: Absolutely. Before this, I, I was going a little too fast and the cancer slowed me down. And I'd rather everybody listen to slow down now before you have something like cancer.

Daniela Tempesta [00:37:47]: 100%. I think that's a great, a great place to end. Thank you so much for being here with me today. I love you.

Jessica Gulish [00:37:54]: Of course. I love you too. So fun.